Pricing Legal Work in Points: Billing That Beats Hourly and Flat Fee (Ep. 182)
For decades, the billable hour has been the default way law firms have priced legal services. Lawyers track their time, clients pay for those hours, and firms measure productivity by how much time gets billed.
But what happens when technology particularly AI allows lawyers to do more work in less time?
That question is becoming increasingly important.
On this episode of The Lawyer Millionaire, host Darren Wurz sits down with Whitney Harper of ADVOS Pro and ADVOS Legal to explore a different approach to legal pricing, one that moves beyond both the traditional billable hour and conventional flat-fee billing.
Whitney hasn't billed or even tracked an hour in more than a decade. Instead, her firm uses a points-based pricing model designed around the value and complexity of the work rather than the amount of time it takes.
And her experience offers some important lessons for law firm owners thinking about profitability, cash flow, client satisfaction and the future of legal work.
The Problem With the Billable Hour
The billable hour is attractive because it is simple.
A lawyer has an hourly rate. They record the time spent on a matter. The client receives an invoice based on those hours.
But simplicity doesn't necessarily make something a good measurement system.
As Whitney explains, the fundamental problem becomes even more obvious as lawyers adopt AI. If AI allows a lawyer to produce better work in less time, an hourly billing model can actually make increased efficiency less profitable.
The equation is essentially:
Hourly rate × hours worked = revenue.
Reduce the number of hours and, all else being equal, you reduce the revenue.
That creates a strange incentive. The technology that should make a law firm faster, better and more efficient can become a threat to its traditional business model.
Whitney's argument is that the industry needs to stop asking, "How long did this take?" and start asking, "What value did we deliver?"
Why Flat Fees Aren't Always the Answer
The obvious alternative to hourly billing is a flat fee.
Whitney and her business partner initially tried exactly that when they launched ADVOS Legal in 2015. But they quickly discovered a major problem: legal work is rarely as predictable as it appears at the beginning of an engagement.
A client may make a different decision. A new fact may emerge. Opposing counsel may become more difficult. A judge may take an unexpected position. The law may change.
Suddenly, the carefully defined scope that formed the basis of the flat fee no longer reflects reality.
Flat fees can therefore create another problem: scope creep.
The lawyer is trying to protect the firm's profitability while the client understandably wants the matter handled within the original fee.
Whitney's experience suggests that there is a relatively small universe of legal matters where a rigid, fixed fee and narrowly defined scope work perfectly for both sides.
So if hourly billing doesn't work and flat fees don't always work, what's the alternative?
A Different Way to Price Legal Work
ADVOS developed a points-based approach inspired by the way software developers use Agile and Scrum methodologies.
Instead of measuring work in hours, the firm breaks a legal engagement into its component deliverables and assigns points to those deliverables.
Think of it like going to an arcade with a bucket of tokens.
One game might cost one token. Another, more complex game might cost five.
You aren't paying for how long the arcade employee spent creating or operating the game. You're using a transparent unit of value that allows you to decide how you want to spend your tokens.
Legal services can work similarly.
A relatively straightforward document might require one point. A more complex deliverable could require several points. The number of points reflects factors such as:
Complexity
Size of the matter
Value to the client
Risk to the client
Urgency
This gives clients something the billable hour often doesn't: choice and control.
Clients Don't Always Need the Most Expensive Solution
One of the most interesting implications of this model is that it changes the conversation between lawyer and client.
Under hourly billing, clients may be reluctant to tell their lawyers too much because they are worried about the clock.
That can prevent lawyers from getting the information they need to fully understand the problem.
The lawyer may then produce an extremely thorough piece of work when the client actually needed something much simpler.
The result?
The client receives an invoice and thinks, "This was a $500 problem. If I had known it would cost $5,000, I wouldn't have asked you to do it."
A value-based conversation changes that dynamic.
Instead of simply receiving a bill after the work has been completed, the client can participate in decisions about how the problem should be solved.
Maybe they want the most comprehensive solution.
Maybe they want something faster.
Maybe they decide the issue isn't important enough to justify the expense.
The important thing is that they understand their choices before the work is done.
Predictability Builds Trust
Clients generally want to know what they're getting into financially.
Whitney's firm has made client feedback a major part of its business. Since 2016, the firm has tracked Net Promoter Score (NPS), and Whitney says its rolling 12-month score has consistently been in the mid-to-high 90s.
She contrasts that with the legal industry's much lower NPS.
The lesson isn't simply that alternative pricing produces happier clients.
It's that giving clients agency can fundamentally change the client relationship.
When clients understand their options, they don't have to interpret a higher bill as a judgment about whether the lawyer is "worth it."
Instead, they can have a conversation about the different ways of solving the problem and decide what makes sense for them.
That's a much healthier foundation for trust.
The Model Can Improve Cash Flow Too
Alternative pricing isn't only about making clients happier.
It can have a significant impact on a firm's financial health.
Whitney describes ADVOS as a highly profitable practice, not because it charges unreasonable prices, but because it has separated the value of its work from the amount of time required to deliver it.
That distinction is powerful.
When profitability isn't tied directly to hours, lawyers can invest in systems that make the firm more efficient.
They can build checklists.
They can create better document libraries.
They can automate administrative processes.
They can experiment with AI.
And they can delegate repeatable work to other members of the team.
The result is that lawyers can spend more of their time on the things that actually require human judgment—strategic thinking, solving complex problems and building relationships with clients.
Don't Forget the Cash Flow
Profitability is only part of the equation.
A firm can be profitable on paper and still have cash-flow problems if it has to wait months to collect its fees.
Whitney's firm addresses this by discussing money upfront and collecting payments throughout the engagement rather than waiting until the end.
She says approximately 70% of the firm's revenue comes from recurring membership clients, who pay a consistent monthly fee for a bucket of points. For project-based work, clients pay in installments as the work progresses.
That approach reduces the need to chase large outstanding invoices.
It also creates greater alignment between the firm's delivery of work and its collection of revenue.
Pricing for Urgency
There's another interesting feature of the points system: it can account for urgency.
Under hourly billing, a lawyer's midnight hour is essentially priced the same as an hour on a quiet Tuesday afternoon.
But urgent work has a different economic impact on a law firm. It may require the lawyer to move other work, rearrange schedules or work outside normal hours.
The points system can reflect that.
A document that normally requires one point might require two points if the client needs it within a couple of days.
The client gets an explicit choice: pay more for speed or wait for the normal turnaround.
That's a much clearer pricing conversation than simply discovering a larger bill after the fact.
AI Doesn't Have to Be a Threat
Perhaps the biggest lesson from this conversation is that AI doesn't have to threaten a law firm's profitability.
The problem arises when firms try to fit a dramatically more efficient way of working into a business model designed around time.
If AI makes a lawyer twice as productive, an hourly model creates a difficult question:
How do you charge for the same value when you're delivering it in half the time?
A value-oriented pricing model provides a different answer.
The firm can benefit from efficiency rather than being punished by it.
And Whitney is already applying AI directly to her firm's alternative pricing methodology. She describes an AI coach called Addy, built around the firm's P3 points-based method, which helps licensees with pricing, pitching clients and tracking engagements.
That represents a very different vision for the future of legal services.
The Future of Law Firm Profitability
The conversation ultimately isn't just about replacing one billing system with another.
It's about changing the way lawyers think about their businesses.
A profitable law firm doesn't necessarily need lawyers to work more hours.
It needs a pricing model that allows the firm to capture the value it creates, a delivery system that allows lawyers to work efficiently, and a cash-flow system that gets money into the firm without constant invoice chasing.
Most importantly, it needs a model that works for both the lawyer and the client.
As AI continues to change how legal work gets done, firms that continue to equate value with time may find themselves increasingly constrained.
The firms that learn to separate value from hours may have a significant advantage.
Because the goal shouldn't be to build a law firm where everyone works more.
The goal should be to build a law firm that produces better work, serves clients better, generates healthy profits and gives its owners greater freedom.
Resources:
Profit First - Transform Your Business from a Cash-Eating Monster to a Money-Making Machine by Mike Michalowicz (Book)
Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action by Simon Sinek (Book)
Traction: Get a Grip on Your Business by Gino Wickman (Book)
Law Firm Financial Reporting Template Pack (Exclusive content)
Connect with Darren Wurz:
Connect with Whitney Harper:
Linkedin: Whitney Harper
Website: The Deal ADVantage
Website: ADVOS Pro
About Whitney Harper:
Whitney Harper is the co-founder of ADVOS Legal and ADVOS Pro, where she helps law firm owners leave hourly billing behind and build practices they truly enjoy. In this conversation, Whitney shares how her small-town upbringing and strong family roots shaped her confident mindset, how she navigated career changes with intention, and how she is rewriting the rules of modern legal practice. Her story will encourage you to rethink how you work and remind you that more joy and freedom are within reach.
Transcript:
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with AI changing the way law firms are running these days.
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Many lawyers are ditching the billable hour for flat fee pricing.
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But what if there's a better way?
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All right, welcome back to the lawyer millionaire podcast.
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I'm your host, Darren Wurz.
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And I have the pleasure of being joined today by Whitney Harper of ADVOS Pro and ADVOS Legal.
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And she's got a very unique method of billing that she's going to talk with you about today.
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And Whitney, as I understand it, you have not billed an hour in more than a decade.
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Is that right? That's right. Not only have I not billed an hour, I have not tracked an hour.
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Oh my gosh, that's amazing. How about that? How liberating is that?
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It is delightful, honestly. It really is.
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Very cool. So, you know, today we're talking about one method of getting away from the billable
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hour, which we've talked about before on this podcast. But your method is a little unique. It's
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not flat fee pricing. It's something different. Tell us about that.
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Yeah, that's right. So, sort of going back in the time machine to 2015 when we started AdVos Legal,
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we as my business partner Gwen Griggs and I, and 2015, we knew we did not want to bill
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by the hour, but we also understood that we needed to bill by something, right?
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Couldn't just like make up a number and that wasn't going to work for us.
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And there are some people where that kind of approach does seem to make sense and it works for them.
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We are metric driven humans. You know, know yourself. We know we like gold stars.
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So, when I billed by the hour, I knew if I billed 8.6 hours a day or whatever, I was exceeding
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Mark and it was a very clear metric. And so, if you're going to take hourly billing out of the way,
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I still needed something to know how I hit the mark for the day. And I also felt like I needed
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some way to show a client. Did I, did I deliver what you paid for? Are you getting what you paid for?
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And so, you know, we're sitting around going, if it's not billing by the hour, bill by the what,
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what is it going to be? And the first thing that we came upon was flat fee billing. You look around,
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you kind of go, it's 2015, of course, someone has figured this out by now, what's the model we can lean
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into? It looked like flat fee was the thing to do. And so, we tried that. And hopefully I can say this
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on your podcast, but we found that flat fee was just a really good way to get our asses handed to us
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on the regular. It was terrible. It was absolutely terrible. So, you're right. We don't bill flat fee,
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not because we just don't like the idea, but because we actually tried it and it was terrible.
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What was wrong with it was legal work, I think even to the extent that there is such a thing,
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non-complex legal work is just going to be more complex than you think it is. Things are going to
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shift. The client is going to make different choices throughout the representation. And that's even
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from an ethical perspective as the lawyer, we have an obligation to help our clients understand
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the land and empower them to make informed decisions about their own legal matter. And so,
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you kind of from an ethical perspective, you have to allow for your client to make different choices
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as things evolve. But a flat fee doesn't allow for that. A flat fee says, hey, let's talk about your scope,
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let's define this really, really clearly. And you almost lawyer the engagement to death because
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you've been so specific about, this is in scope, this is out of scope, you get this many rounds of
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negotiations or whatever it is, you define all the edges of this thing. And then as soon as you
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and the client have agreed on that scope, I mean within 30 seconds, something is going to change.
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Yeah, yeah. Counter parties going to get more annoyed than you thought they were or the opposing
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council is going to be harder to deal with than you thought they would be or some new fact is going
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to come to light or the client is going to make a different choice or the law changes or the judges
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going to go different around the UN-SPECTED. So, something is going to happen. And that's going to be
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true no matter what kind of project you're doing. I don't care what practice area you're in,
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what kind of client you have, how simple you think the thing is. I think flat fee, there's just a very,
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I may be slightly exaggerating this, but I think it's a very small universe of things where a hard
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and fast flat fee for a very clearly defined scope is going to serve both parties really well.
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Yeah. And it's so many people that I've talked with have expressed that same frustration with
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the flat fee method and the scope creep and all that thing. And I think some of people are looking
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to alternatives these days because AI is really challenging the hourly billing method. Why is it that
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AI, hourly billing turns AI into more of a threat instead of an advantage?
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Well, efficiency, right? Because hourly billing is dollars per hour times hours.
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And if you are using AI, you know, I think lawyers for a long time thought AI wasn't really a threat to
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legal work because we were only going to use AI for the administrative stuff. It was only going to be
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the non-lawyers, the paralegals or the admin staff who were going to use AI and that was fine.
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But now it's very clear that AI is part of doing your best legal work. If you're not using AI in the
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practice of law right now, I think you're falling behind from a substantive qualitative perspective,
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not just you're not keeping up with technology. And if we're going to use AI and it's going to make
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us better faster, stronger, yes, better, yes, stronger, but keyword faster. And we then are going to
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build by the hour. There's only so far that I can increase my hourly rate and still make it make
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sense and say it with a straight face to a client, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see.
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Like if I've got to go add zeros, like several zeros to my hourly rate, to start making it
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still be profitable for me to practice law because I'm getting more efficient, that's not going to work.
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And so instead of billing based on the time it took you, which was never a good metric, by the way,
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it was just an easy metric. Yeah.
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We need to start thinking about billing in terms of the value we deliver.
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And it's not just the value, it's, you know, I think sometimes people have a hard time with
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thinking about value in terms of like it's my own personal inherent value. It's not just that,
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it's also what is the value of this thing to the client? Yeah. Yeah. And are there different ways to
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solve for it that might take more or less of your effort or expertise that might involve more or
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less risk to the client that might shift what the fee is for that thing to the client? And could we let
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the client start making some decisions about that? Because as lawyers, and this great conversation with
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another lawyer yesterday, we were talking about the fact that in the standard model, the hourly
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billing model, lawyers get a call from a client, client says, I need XYZ problem solved.
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And they, by the way, are going to talk really fast. They're going to tell you only what you think,
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what they think you need to know because they don't want this conversation to cost them more.
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And they don't actually know all the things that would be relevant to the legal issue.
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So you're not, you're sort of already operating with one hand tied behind your back because you
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don't have all the information that would have made you great. But you also haven't had a chance to
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have a conversation with the client about like, let me really understand the issue and who you are
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in your context and what matters to you so that then I can lay out for you. Yeah.
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Some different options. And so instead, what happens is the lawyer goes away and feels compelled
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to do the most buttoned up, you know, best work product ever that the client probably didn't
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want pay for, right? The client didn't want a dissertation worthy of a law review.
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The client wanted a bullet point memo and an email they could cut and paste to the
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the counter party to get this issue resolved or, you know, whatever it is. But if we don't have
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that conversation with the client, the problem we end up with is the conversation on the back end.
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Where you've done your best work, you're very proud of this work. The client, yes, their issue is
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resolved, but they get your invoice and they say, this was a $500 problem. If I had known it was
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going to cost $5,000 to solve it, I would never would have asked you to do it. Yeah. And there's, you
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know, clients want certainty, speaking of clients, there's a statistic I found that is that 71% of clients
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prefer, you know, some kind of predictable pricing. I'm curious, you know, you've been doing this a while.
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How has this changed or impacted client satisfaction for you? Oh my gosh. This is, Darren, this is my
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favorite of the statistics for us. We throughout the history of our firm have been really committed to
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being feedback rich, which means we ask people, even when we expect the answer might not be great,
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we ask people, would you recommend us to a friend or call it? We use the NPS system, the Net Promoter
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Score. And we've done that, I think, since the start of 2016. And our NPS score on a rolling 12-month
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basis is always in the mid to mid to high 90s. We hear in there, we have a little blip. But NPS scores
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are on a scale from negative 100 to positive 100. Okay. So that's your scale. When we started doing
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this, the legal industries NPS score was I think 23, right, clearly rated, did a survey on it. And
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I think as an industry, lawyers were coming in at a 23. So great that we were in the positive.
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Yeah, but barely. Right. And we were sitting, you know, in the mid 90s. Yeah. Fast forward,
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you know, in the last decade, the last time I saw it, the legal industry score is now in the,
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I think high 30s. So fully frost, we're getting better. Weirdly people decided they liked their
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lawyers better through COVID. There was definitely, like, yeah, yeah, lawyers more, but the client satisfaction
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rating is huge. And I think what you've hit on there is clients get to understand and make heads-up
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decisions. They're empowered. They're not, they don't have to feel badly about saying, this is a $500
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issue. And I don't want to sell it for $5,000. Like it's no longer a value judgment about like, hey,
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Whitney, I don't think you're worth it. It's like, we can have a conversation about the different ways
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to solve this problem or to address it. One of which might be, client takes no action and decides
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that $500 is the penalty they'll pay if the other party decides to do something, right? But
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generally speaking, I think we all are humans who prefer agency, right? Like, I want to be able to make
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decisions. I want good information, loyering for whatever reason has been like the one place where
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the vending machine is broken everywhere else in your life. You get to see the price before you pick
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the product. Except the doctor, maybe. Yeah, that's actually a really good point. Madison is the
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other place where this is, it's terrible. And nobody wants to buy this, right? Like, when he likes that
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market, everyone feels terribly uncomfortable about that market because of the lack of visibility.
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Yeah. But would you buy a car without understanding what the choices of trim level are or what the cost
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of the car is going to be? Yeah. Absolutely not. Right? You wouldn't do it with house. You wouldn't do it
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with your groceries. But we all think that it's the way it has to be done for legal. And it's really not.
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So that's where, you know, we, we kind of started on this journey saying, we're not going to build
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by the hour. And then we realized we had to find a method that really was going to work and be durable
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for complex work, work that changes over time, clients whose needs at the start of the engagement,
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we're going to be vastly different from what they needed 30 days and 60 days and 90 days in.
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And we wanted to build it so that it could be really sticky, right? We wanted long-term client
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relationships where we could build partnerships with our clients and really enjoy the work and do
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our best work for people where we felt like we were investing alongside them in in their own outcomes.
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Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the specifics of your program. As I understand it,
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it is, you know, not a flat fee. It's more of a point system. You price in points rather than hours.
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Tell us a little bit about this point system for someone who's never heard of it. What exactly is a point?
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Yeah. Yeah. So the origin of this is a friend of the firm who we were kicking this problem around with
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said, you know, people are telling you that you can't price knowledge work. But software developers
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have figured out how to do it. They have quantified knowledge work. And what he was referring to is the
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agile scrum methodology where software developers were using this practice of taking a project and
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breaking it down into its component parts. And we would call those deliverables. And then sizing
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those deliverables into points. The software developers call them sprint points. And they're,
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I think a big, a big focus of the agile strum methodology is increasing speed and throughput.
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Sort of getting twice as much done and half the time. Yeah.
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Well, us, it was less about increasing throughput, although that is a benefit. We could, we could
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definitely figure out how to do a whole lot more. And thereby be way more profitable and serve
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more clients without running ourselves into the ground, which is key. Yeah.
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But it was more about, hey, there is a tried and true method for sizing knowledge work and for
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allowing for the uncertainty, right? Not trying to litigate it into this tiny little box and saying,
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this is the scope for this fee. But instead being able to say, you know, we're going to size things
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kind of relative to each other. And some people talk about it in terms of like t-shirt,
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t-shirt sizing, small medium large. I think the best analogy, this has made sense to everybody.
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I've said it to you so far, I think. When you were a kid, you go to an arcade. You get a little bucket
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of 10 tokens. You walk into that arcade thinking you are so excited to play ski ball. You are going
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to play 10 games of ski ball. Right? So you all take one token. And then you hear this bling, bling,
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bling, bling thing happening over a mid-assence and you realize there is laser tag. Okay.
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Laser tag is much, you know, it takes longer to play. There are lots of bells and whistles. There's
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a lot of complexity and it took some real technology to build the laser tag, right? That thing is a five token
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game. So now I realize I can play 10 games of ski ball. I can play laser tag twice. And there's
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probably a whole bunch of other games that are somewhere in the middle, maybe a two or three token game,
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right? But now I can sort of start to understand why one thing might be more expensive than the other.
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And I can make decisions about, yeah, yeah, I do want some laser tag in my life. I'm going to do that
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instead of five of my ski ball games. Yeah. Right? It's the same thing with our points. So we might say,
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hey, client, you have a complex project. I do a lot of cell side M&A work for you. So we're selling
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businesses. At the beginning of that engagement, I don't necessarily know everything that's going to
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happen in the sale of business. I have a pretty good idea of what the core pieces are going to be.
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And I sort of know where the phases transition. So it might be that phase one is, I'm going to get you
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to the point of a term sheet. So we're going to negotiate a term sheet. And here's what that looks
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like. There's probably an NDA. There might be some rounds of revision on the NDA. There's a term sheet
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and if we're doing this with, if we're negotiating with one party, then we're probably looking at
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a couple of turns on the term sheet. And so maybe your NDA is a half point. And if there are rounds
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of revision there, there are probably a quarter point to a half point. Your term sheet is probably two
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points. And negotiations on the term sheet are probably a half point for each round of negotiation.
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Because there's a lot of, you know, the term sheet itself might be two or three pages, but there's a lot
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of client education and a lot of complexity buried into that. So I can help the client understand,
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here are the things in this first phase of your project that are likely to happen.
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And I don't have control over how much we negotiate. That's the client's decision and the other
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party's decision. I don't have any control over who the counterparty is. The client chose their
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counterparty. But I do have the ability to tell the client, in my expertise, here are the likely
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things that are going to be involved in that first phase. And here's how your fee for that first
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phase gets built along the way. And then when we get the term sheet signed, I'll have a much better idea
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of what the definitive documents, what are the things we're actually going to need to do in that
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next phase where we're negotiating the purchase agreement itself. So in that approach,
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what I'm doing is I'm not giving the client a fixed, flat, committed, guaranteed fee. None of
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those words ever happened. But I am giving a client a good sense of you're not getting out of here
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for less than X. It might be up to Y. It could be more if you decide you want to go to the mattresses
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and stuff. But realm of realistic possibility, here's where you're likely to be. And here's the
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schedule that you're going to pay us on. You're going to pay us some upfront, you're going to pay us
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some in 30 days, some at the closing of the term sheet. And then we'll give you a better sense of
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the scope of the next phase so that you know how that might go and what choices you can make
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to impact that along the way. Okay. I think that's really the best example of how the points
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allow for that flexibility. But it also gives us a chance to say to the client,
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not just flexibility, but control and choice. You know, like the client can see it, they feel it.
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If the project is getting higher in complexity than what they originally said, which almost
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always happens, right? Because everyone comes in saying, I just have a simple thing. Yeah.
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Very simple. Are there certain practice areas where you feel like this is a really good fit? I mean,
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I'm thinking family law would probably be a really good fit for this because, you know, you don't know
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to what extent it's going to go. There could be many rounds of lots of things. Are there others that
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really are kind of like would be the best candidates? Yeah, it's funny because I think a lot of people
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don't think family law is a good fit because of the complexity. Okay. I think it's a great fit.
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Yeah. I think litigation actually can fit really well in this model. Okay.
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Where it's not great is if you, obviously, if you operate on a contingency, you don't need to
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do like this. Yeah, we're different there. And if you are going to need to get fees approved by
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the court paid by the other side, that kind of thing, it might not be a great fit. It might not
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be as easy to get a court to say yes to this. But really everything else, the key is as a lawyer,
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you have a, you have a better body of knowledge about what the likely components of the engagement are
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Yeah. Then the client does. And so it's sort of giving you an opportunity on the front end to
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educate the client a bit, build some trust, have the client understand that you are the expert in
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this area, educate them a bit about what the engagement and the fees are likely to be, but also help
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them to be a better partner to you in the engagement. Yeah. And I think that's important in every
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practice area, honestly, whether you serve consumers, individuals or businesses, it all comes back
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to people and building trust and accountability. And really like, I think as lawyers, we all want to
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do our best work. We want to show up really well for our clients and for ourselves. We have professional
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relationships and and reputations we want to maintain. And so, you know, I think no matter what area
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you practice in having a system that lets you profitably practice, yeah, grinding yourself into
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the ground and doing it in a way that clients love and clients become raving fans and your biggest
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referral source like that's Yeah, I want to kind of, you know, bring that back, you know, full circle.
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You know, this whole year we've been talking about profit that's been our theme has been profit.
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My favorite topic. Yeah. And so, you know, in using your system, I'm sure there's a number of ways,
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you know, but what is kind of the impact that you've seen or that you could see on cash flow and
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profitability in implementing a system like this? It's tremendous. We are a very profitable practice.
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And it's not because we're like jacking up pricing beyond what it should be in the market, right? We
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are profitable because we have begun to think about, we've gotten very comfortable thinking about
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our the value of our work to us and to our clients and being able to communicate that. And we have
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completely divorced that conversation from how long did it take me to do the thing? And when you
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really get comfortable with it's not about the hours, you then start being willing to invest the time
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in checking out the new AI tools that are out there or things that aren't AI, right? Like
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finding the document library that you love or the checklist, right? This is the third time I've
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done this thing and every time this this I click the wrong button on the state's e-filing thing.
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Let me make the checklist. Yeah. I can I can afford to spend 15 30 minutes making a checklist so that
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the next time this thing comes up, I can hand it off to my paralegal and she can do it and I don't have
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to worry about it and she can do it without getting, you know, trapped by the whatever button on the
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state filing system. But it can be bigger things like, you know, a big checklist for how to handle
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client engagement or we've invested a lot of time in our firm in building the AI tools that help
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our admin team onboard a client so that it still feels really high touch to the client. And our team
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has fewer touches internally. So then we're freeing up the people to do a really peopley work.
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Yeah, yeah, connecting with other humans or synthesizing complex stuff or thinking strategically
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about what we want to do with a client's engagement instead of redlining a document or trying to
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figure out which which document to pull from Westlaw to start from on, you know, whatever matter.
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So, yeah, I mean, I think from a profitability perspective, when you're not tying everything to the hour,
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then you start sizing things based on the value, they get points based on the value of the thing.
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And value is, I think about size complexity, value to the client, risk to the client.
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Yeah. But also, this is a fun one urgency. If you build by the hour, you're, I need it right now,
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hour that you had to show everything else off your desk for or your midnight hour is the same as your next Tuesday at noon.
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Like that's what every early rate is is your early rate. Yeah. In our world, clients understand that the document you need,
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sometime the next two weeks is one point. Yeah, if it's a if it's a one point document,
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but that same document, if you need it in the next couple days, yeah, that's two points.
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Smart, smart. Yeah.
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Bet X works the same way and so does everybody else. Yeah. Yeah.
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So clients get that. They're not, they're not fussed about it at all and they start to actually change their behavior.
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Well, they might actually prefer it because now they know if I need it faster, I have an avenue to get that.
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Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I'll see.
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If you say to me, I need this faster, I'm willing to pay for it. I'm pretty happy to do that for you because I like profit. Yeah. Yeah.
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So there's, there's that piece of it that just like you can, you can figure out, you can engineer how to deliver work that is higher quality than what you could do before.
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In a faster, more efficient way because you're not tied hours, but the other part you mentioned cash flow.
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The fact that I can build a profitable price for it means nothing if I can't collect the dollars. Yes.
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And it, it still means something if I can collect the dollars, but I had to chase them.
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It's just less exciting because that's my time I got to go use to chase or I've got to pay somebody else to go do that.
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And for a lot of reasons, I don't want to do that. So in our practice,
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we've been very clear that we're going to talk about the money on the front end and clients are going to pay on the front end.
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And so probably 70% of our revenue is recurring revenue clients who are on a membership. They're paying us a consistent monthly fee for a bucket of points that size to the size of their membership.
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And you know, those points are fundable. We think you're going to use them on projects. A, B, and C turns out you need DE and F. That's fine as long as they're the same number of points. We're good. Yeah.
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So that one, honestly, but on a project too, like clients don't generally start with a membership, you know, they're very rarely to somebody wake up and think out of the blue.
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Like I'd like to start a long term relationship with a lawyer today, right? That's, that's not how it starts.
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So they come in, they've got a project, the thing that's bothering them, the thing they need to address.
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We size that up, we kind of give them the initial scope. And then they're going to pay a good chunk of it on the front end.
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Another installment 30 days, right? Like if it's two month project, they're going to, they're going to handle that in three, three tranches.
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And we're keeping it kind of even paced so that they've never paid for more than they, than we've delivered.
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But we're also not ever in a position where we're chasing big dollars at the end.
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Makes a lot of sense. Yeah.
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And honestly, like when clients love the way you work, like we don't do work that our clients are not thrilled to pay us for.
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Yeah.
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Because we talked about it at the front end, we've given them the options. They've said yes.
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Yeah.
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So then you get to the end. And even if it is big dollars at the end,
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generally speaking, you know, people are pretty quick to write that check because they knew what they were getting into.
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They made a, you know, they made an adult decision.
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And there's no arguing about 15 minutes spent reading an email or
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correct, correct. And we aren't wasting any time.
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building those invoices, right? Like if I, if my invoice is one line that says, you know,
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project, sale of business, closing installment and has a dollar amount, like, that's it.
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They're not getting the invoice without the time entries.
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I'm not worried about trying to track the time entries.
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I'm not going back and forth with the other lawyers in the firm saying, like,
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oh, I said we met for 15 minutes. Your thing says we met for 17 minutes. We've got to
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tie that up, you know. Great, great.
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None of that.
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Well, Whitney, we're coming close to the end of our time here. Unfortunately, it's gone by so quickly.
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It flies.
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I have two very quick questions for you before we go. Kind of a little lightning round here.
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Question number one, what is one way you're using AI in your practice more recently that you're
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really excited about?
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Oh, I love this one. We are licensing our method. So the, the P3 method, the points
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approach to billing, we license to other lawyers. And we put all of our content, all of our know how
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into an AI coach that I built recently. Her name is Addy.
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Oh, cool.
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She is everybody's new best friend. So all of our licensees now have this included in their license.
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They get this AI coach who learns their practice area, helps them build their pricing, helps them
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figure out how to pitch to new clients, track engagements once they've sold them.
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So, you know, clients says yes to a number of points. Like Addy's helping you track all of that.
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Yeah.
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It is incredible. And she's really, it's fun to work with her. So that has been my very favorite
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AI project in our in our practice. And we use it too. Yeah.
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It's for our licensees, but we actually use it inside our practice.
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And very cool.
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It's tremendous. Yeah. It's fun. Yeah. Well, make sure we have a link for people to go check that out.
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And my last question for you, what is either your favorite business book or a book you're reading right now
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that you're really excited about?
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Oh, um, hmm.
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I am on a fiction kick right now. So, okay.
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Wouldn't be one I'm reading right now, but I am a big fan of, well, I'll give you, I'll give you two
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on sort of different ends. One, um, start with why. I feel like we, we start with why into everything
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to you. It's tremendous. If you aren't entering the book, just watch the TED Talk.
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It's a great, great place. Simon Sinek is tremendous.
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The other, which is a little, a little more tactical, a lot more tactical is traction.
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I think, um, and what I'll say there is attractions in tremendous book.
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It doesn't, you don't have to like be a, um, an exact,
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a disciple of traction to make it work for you. We have, we have made it our own in our business,
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and implemented it in a way that works really beautifully for us and the shape of our practice.
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Yeah. Um, and I think a lot of people get hung up on, who I have to do it exactly.
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Oh, sure. I don't think you do. I think you just take it and make it yours.
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But it's like, I feel like traction is the, um, like the Sharkudri board of business books.
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Like it has a little bit of Rockefeller habits and a little bit of good degree and a little bit of
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this other thing. And like, you put them all together and you figure out how they fit together
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and they make a really, a really great system. So for sure. Yeah. Always a great one. If you haven't
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read it, you need to both those books. Actually, we'll make sure we put those in the show notes.
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And by the way, we're going to have Whitney in our community for a hot seat. She's going to be doing
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a live Q&A on her method and her know how. So you don't want to miss that. We'll put the link to that
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in the show notes. That is September 10th at 4 p.m. Eastern. So if you want to hear more
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about Whitney's method and how she deploys it in her firm, be sure to join us then.
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And Whitney, is there anything else that you want to share with our audience today?
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Gosh, no. Thank you so much for having me here. And this was really fun. Always one of my favorite topics.
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So I appreciate the opportunity. For sure. Thank you so much. Yeah. Have a great one.
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I love Whitney's unique and innovative approach to billing. I think it's just fabulous.
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Of course, I love innovations. And we are all about innovation here at the lawyer millionaire.
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It's one of the reasons that we've embraced our own alternative pricing method. You know,
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different from many financial advisors who charge you a percentage on your portfolio. We charge
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you one flat fee that covers everything, unlimited investment management. And of course,
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all the other great things that we do as well. You know, tax planning and tax filing, bookkeeping,
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business advice and business planning as well. So we've done that here and we love it.
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And of course, here at the lawyer millionaire, we would love to help you in your business.
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Figure out how that you can improve your cash flow, your profitability, so that you can
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grow wealth and achieve your lifelong goals. And we've got the team that is just right for you.
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If you're looking for a team based approach that can work cohesively in an integrated way,
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we bring a whole team to work with you, a CPA, a CFP and a business advisor, all working with you
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to help you grow your business, grow your profits, and of course grow your wealth.
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Well, I do hope you join us in the lawyer millionaire community. If you're not yet a member,
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please join us. The link is in the show notes. And in the community is when we're going to be doing
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our hot seat with Whitney on September 10th, 2026 at 4 p.m. Eastern. So be sure to join us. We'll
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put the link to register inside the show notes. Of course, you do need to be a community member to
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attend, but membership is 100% free. It's very quick and easy to sign up. So go down there in the show
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notes. There's a whole bunch of stuff there waiting for you, a lot of resources. And of course,
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the link to register for our upcoming hot seat. Well, that's it for today, friend. And remember one
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thing, if your law firm isn't giving you wealth, how in the hell is it going to give you freedom?
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Can I get an amen out there? All right, now go make the cash flow and the profits grow.
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And I'll see you next time.
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