Culture First: How Joel Ferdinand Built a 230+ Partner Law Firm with Servant Leadership (Ep. 122)

Written By Adedayo Adekunle

Are you searching for the blueprint to scale your law firm while maintaining a thriving, empowered culture? In this highlights blog from The Lawyer Millionaire Podcast, we dive into the remarkable story of Joel Ferdinand, co-founder and co-chairman of Pierson Ferdinand a firm that launched with over 130 partners and has grown to more than 230 in just 18 months. If you’re a law firm owner focused on both business growth and sustainable, values-driven leadership, this is the insight you can’t afford to miss.

Why Culture is the Secret to Scaling a Successful Law Firm

Too often, “culture” feels like a buzzword. But for Joel Ferdinand and his co-founder Michael Pearson, it’s the foundation. Their story isn’t about growth for growth’s sake—it’s about building a business where people feel valued, connected, and empowered.

So how did Pearson Ferdinand achieve one of the largest law firm launches in U.S. history?

1. Teamwork and Trust Over Ego

Joel is clear: “There’s no ego here, no hubris. It’s a team effort.” By empowering their partners and centering trust and collaboration, they have attracted top talent who are excited to join and stay.

2. Radical Transparency

Transparency isn’t just an aspiration—it’s a documented rule. Every partner receives a 100+ page handbook outlining firm policies, expectations, and even payment structures. Everyone knows exactly how compensation is determined, including what the leadership earns. This clear communication eliminates confusion and demonstrates a commitment to fairness.

3. Servant Leadership in Action

Servant leadership isn’t just a phrase for Joel—it’s a guiding principle. He lives it by admitting mistakes, apologizing, and making sure the rules apply to everyone, including himself and Michael. “If you put people first, business success will follow,” Joel says. This approach fosters loyalty and drives performance.

4. Streamlined Business Processes

Pearson Ferdinand invests in technology to make lawyers’ lives easier. From a suite of pre-approved engagement forms to automated processes, the non-billable workload has been dramatically reduced. This efficient setup means partners spend less time on admin and more time delivering value to clients and connecting with their families.

The Business Case for Culture

Too many law firms focus solely on profit. Joel argues this is a mistake. “Success isn’t just money. It’s about giving people their lives back, building strong relationships, and creating a supportive environment,” he shares. When you care for your partners and empower your team, the financial results will come.

Joel’s approach has transformed lives—from better work-life balance to improved mental health and even stronger client relationships. “Money follows culture,” he reminds us.

Key Takeaways for Law Firm Owners

  • Invest in your people first. A strong, transparent, and values-driven culture draws top talent and keeps them engaged.

  • Document expectations. Clear partner handbooks and transparent compensation policies build trust from day one.

  • Automate and simplify. Use technology to free up your team for meaningful, billable work—and for life outside the office.

  • Lead by serving. Make your team’s well-being a business priority. When you do, you’ll create a thriving firm in every sense.

  • Redefine success. True wealth is built not just in portfolios, but in purpose, relationships, and a shared vision.

Resources:

 

Connect with Darren Wurz:

 

Connect with Joel Ferdinand:

About Joel Ferdinand:

Mr. Ferdinand is a business trial lawyer, handling sophisticated business disputes. He regularly appears in federal and state courts throughout the country. Large companies, family owned businesses, and business executives seek out his experience, which brings an assertive and practical, results-oriented approach, to help resolve their personal and professional issues. Mr. Ferdinand aggressively pursues client interests in court and the boardroom.

Among others, Mr. Ferdinand’s experience includes, appellate litigation; bankruptcy adversary proceedings; bid protests, debarments, and appeals; breach of contract and Uniform Commercial Code claims; broker disputes; commercial landlord-tenant actions, including commercial evictions; condominium association litigation; consumer fraud and deceptive trade practices act claims; corporate governance; directors’ and officers’ claims; ethics and professional liability; health law; injunctions; insurance issues; lien claims, including commercial and residential construction liens; planning board actions; post-judgment collection; restrictive covenants; shareholder and partnership disputes; and shareholder derivative claims.

Before Pierson Ferdinand, Mr. Ferdinand was a Managing Partner at FisherBroyles, LLP. Before that, Mr. Ferdinand was a senior associate of Fox Rothschild LLP’s litigation department in the practice areas of Attorneys and Law Firms, Construction, Directors and Officers Liability and Corporate Governance Disputes, Environmental, Health Law, Insurance, Litigation, and Zoning and Land Use. Mr. Ferdinand was included in a list of SJ Magazine’s Top Attorneys, August 2011. During law school, Mr. Ferdinand was the Editor-in-Chief of The Rutgers Journal of Law & Religion. A merit scholar at Rutgers School of Law at Camden, Mr. Ferdinand was active in the Rutgers Civil Practice Clinic providing legal assistance to local residents and also represented Rutgers Law on the Trial Advocacy Competition Team. Mr. Ferdinand was also awarded the Philadelphia Trial Lawyers Association James J. Manderino Award for Trial Advocacy.

Transcript:

Darren Wurz [00:00:00]:

What happens when you launch a 230 partner law firm with a servant's heart? Welcome to the Lawyer Millionaire. Helping law firm owners grow their businesses and their wealth. I'm your host, Darren Wurz. Let's face it, culture isn't just a buzzword. It's the invisible force that shapes your team's performance, your client experience and your firm's future. But how do you actually build a law firm where people feel empowered and, and not expendable? Today's guest is Joel Ferdinand, co founder and co chairman of Pierson Ferdinand LLP. He helped lead one of the largest law Firm launches in U.S. history and brings a bold, values driven vision for modern legal leadership.

Darren Wurz [00:00:43]:

All right, Joel, we're excited for the show today and glad to have you here.

Joel Ferdinand [00:00:48]:

Thanks for having me.

Darren Wurz [00:00:50]:

Yeah. So you have had quite an exciting journey and so much has happened for you in the last couple of years. As I understand it, you co founded Pierferd in 2024 and launched with over 130 partners, one of the largest launches in history. What was it that made that level of scale and coordination possible?

Joel Ferdinand [00:01:20]:

Started with a really hard question, right. Honestly, just the team. Listen, we get asked a lot, how did we do it? Michael Pearson, my co founder and I say pretty often has nothing to do with us. There's no ego here, there's no hubris. It's a team effort and we had a really large team and 130 partners that we really love and trust that it made that possible. We've scaled, looking at the calendar, so it's June now, which is insane to me. Over the last 18 months, we're sitting at over 243 partners subscribed. I think there's 234, 235 here today, which is remarkable.

Joel Ferdinand [00:02:01]:

And it looks to the outside world like we're, we're scaling so fast. Can I tell you, I finished my 893rd face to face interview with partner candidates today. Since January 1 of 24, it's, it's a really slow and intentional process on our part so that we never grow for the sake of growth, but really in, in direct answer to your question, it's the team that makes it possible.

Darren Wurz [00:02:25]:

Yeah, absolutely. So what is it that draws people? I mean, you say it's slow, but it's fast. I mean you're getting people that want to come to your organization. What is it that's drawing them?

Joel Ferdinand [00:02:40]:

So Michael and I focus at Pureford on culture first. We run businesses, right. So not the only business I own with Michael or The only business that Michael and I own, irrespective of each other, everything we do is based on culture first. So our four cornerstones appeared that are very near and dear to both of our hearts are professional, responsive, trusted, and humble. Listen, you've heard my podcast, Darren. You've heard me speak before. Keeping in my circle. This is a biblical mandate for why I live my life the way I do.

Joel Ferdinand [00:03:10]:

When I say humble, Darren, I make like 18.6 million mistakes a day internally, never externally, lest we commit malpractice. But internally, I stop myself cold in my tracks. I directly express the mistake that I made. I apologize and I promise through my actions that it won't be repeated. And sometimes I still repeat it and I have to be called out on it. I think that's the right thing to do. Our cornerstones are everything. We care more about our partners and staff, what we call our pure, furred family as human beings than we do as professionals.

Joel Ferdinand [00:03:43]:

They're elite, excellent lawyers. There's no doubt about it. We have a hiring pedigree. We care about our people first. And I think it shows in everything that we do, you know, to be hired here. One of the promises I asked from each partner and one of the promises that Michael and I asked from each partner is that you've digested our 100 plus page collateral package. We have a 62 page partner handbook. It's not an attorney handbook.

Joel Ferdinand [00:04:10]:

Excuse me, Strike that. It's not an employee handbook. We have that. It is a partner handbook of 62 pages of all of our rules. There is no exception. Not even for me and Michael. The second I make an exception, I'm a scumbag that you can't trust. Right? And that's not in relation to any other business or law firm or owner out there.

Joel Ferdinand [00:04:27]:

I've worked at so many businesses for get law firms. You're told one thing and something else happens. Darren, in any other aspect of your life, that's called a lie. I don't understand why that's accepted amongst law firms or businesses. So we don't lie. We make sure that what we say is confirmed in writing simultaneous with the event. So even at inception, to give someone 100 pages, which it's bonkers, I know it is, right? To give someone 100 pages before we hire them post NDA. These are our rules, and this is what Michael and I will abide by.

Joel Ferdinand [00:05:03]:

It changes everything. And it shows. It's not just the words that we say. It shows in writing that we mean what we say up front. And that we're held to that standard consistently throughout the entire relationship. It's important.

Darren Wurz [00:05:16]:

Yeah, yeah. Setting those expectations clearly in the beginning is really, really powerful. Easier than setting them later.

Joel Ferdinand [00:05:29]:

I don't know that it's easier. Right. It's. You're stuck abiding by it. I've. I've been in businesses before. Forget law firms or businesses where a C suite will say one thing and then the rules start to flex either for profit or for culture or scaling. We wanted to think through at inception, 25 to 50 years.

Joel Ferdinand [00:05:50]:

What does it look like when I am. I am far greater than I am today. And how do we make sure it's consistent from start to finish? And there's no such thing as finish. Michael and I are fervent believers that atrophy is death. If you stop innovating, if you stop disrupting, your business is going to fail. Has nothing to do with a law firm. I think that's any business. So we constantly look to make changes under the rubric of the same rules.

Joel Ferdinand [00:06:17]:

That way it can be consistent for everyone.

Darren Wurz [00:06:21]:

Yeah. Give us a glimpse of what this hundred page partner handbook looks like. What's the main idea here?

Joel Ferdinand [00:06:31]:

Yeah, really. So our, I think our attorney handbook is something that I'm personally most proud of. It is all of our rules from how we pay in transparent environment. How you can check in automatically every two hours by app for exactly how much you're being paid, exactly how much Michael and I are being paid and why. If a client short paid or not. How to deal with origination disputes if, as and when they arise. How to not be a meanie faced jerk. So I'm being a little colloquial and cute, but I'm not.

Joel Ferdinand [00:07:05]:

We have a no meanie face jerk rule. If you act like a big firm jerk, you'll get grace once everyone does. You could have a bad day. If it happens twice, you could have a $45 million book. You will not be here the next day. It's a cancer that needs to be cut out. Culture has to carry. And I think lots of businesses talk about that, but they don't live it out.

Joel Ferdinand [00:07:27]:

Has to be lived out. And really I attribute our growth and our scale to that in large part.

Darren Wurz [00:07:37]:

Yeah, it seems that way. Does it, does it say something? Transparency, you mentioned that. I mean that's. That is lacking in so many businesses, especially small businesses. I actually this was a post. This post went viral on LinkedIn. I said, here's a radical idea. Tell your employees exactly how much money you make.

Darren Wurz [00:07:59]:

And it caught fire. And I was like, you know, this is not revolutionary to Fortune 500 companies. Everybody knows what the CEO makes, right? So why should it be any different for. For smaller businesses?

Joel Ferdinand [00:08:14]:

It shouldn't. I think it's whether it's a pay transparency law or idea. Look, it all links back to culture. I'm going to keep on beating that horse because I believe in it. Nothing needs to be a secret. It can be transparent. Our team's successes or their successes, on which we brag on that in public environment, the. Their failures are our failures, which we take on the chin in public environment without blaming them.

Joel Ferdinand [00:08:44]:

How much we make, who cares? Listen, I work 15 to 18 hours a day, six, seven days a week. My name's Joel Ferdinand. I'm a workaholic. I wish I weren't. But we run a large organization and we very much care about the individuals that are next to us. It's not a horizontal approach, it's vertical. No one's boss. They are our equals.

Joel Ferdinand [00:09:03]:

Whether that is an assistant or a paralegal or an attorney, it does not matter. They are equals and they are equal, equally important to the organization. So everyone should know. There shouldn't be some big secret. And look, the fact that that went viral, don't you find that remarkable? Why are small businesses so afraid to talk about it? I think every business owner's goal at some point is to scale. Yeah, okay, scale. But if you're going to scale, you're constantly in the public limelight. Like, look, this isn't about me.

Joel Ferdinand [00:09:34]:

I said it. I hate having my name on the door. So does Michael.

Darren Wurz [00:09:37]:

Not.

Joel Ferdinand [00:09:37]:

Not something we ever wanted to do. We just didn't want to do a trade name. In some of our jurisdictions that we practice or from which we practice, you can't have a trade name. It has to be actual names. Fine. So it's there. Well, yeah, I believe now that means that we're held to a higher standard. What I say has to be right.

Joel Ferdinand [00:09:55]:

And if I'm. If I'm wrong, and I am a lot, I have to admit it.

Darren Wurz [00:09:59]:

True. Yeah, yeah, that. That, yeah. When your name's up there, there's a lot of attention on you. So, yeah, that added responsibility there for sure.

Joel Ferdinand [00:10:11]:

It's a. You know, we tell lots of people. You know, Michael and I, we want to know everyone's birthday, significant others, anniversaries, heaven forbid, diagnoses. That's a really weighty responsibility. And it's not something that you can lightly take to know that type of information about Your team, you have to live it out, man. That's not easy.

Darren Wurz [00:10:36]:

Right, Right. I know you've talked a lot about the concept of servant leadership, and that's one way that you, you live this out as a core principle. You know, that term gets tossed around a lot and in some ways probably lost its meaning in language. But how do you define servant leadership and what does it look like in your practice?

Joel Ferdinand [00:10:59]:

Man, can I get hokey, but keep it in my circle? Listen, servant leadership comes from the Bible. When, when we drafted this handbook. You know, Michael's very tolerant of me. I, I, I love Michael. He, he's a brother. What a professional blessing. I, I drafted principles knowing what they were because I have a roadmap that's a couple thousand years old. Right? Servant leadership means that I am here to serve.

Joel Ferdinand [00:11:23]:

Not here for the spotlight. Don't care about it. Not here to have my name in the door or to be applauded or to have a ring kissed. Everyone is meant to be my equal. So servant leadership means that I am actually here to serve. That stinks, man. It's really hard. It really is.

Joel Ferdinand [00:11:43]:

Sometimes you want to be told thank you or not be yelled at. Forget the law firm. That's any environment. We're human beings, right? To actually serve others means to put them in front of yourself. That's why we have a 62 page attorney handbook. That's why we have a long employee handbook. I want the entire team to know the rules up front. It is just as much of the rules for me and a reminder for me because I can't violate them.

Joel Ferdinand [00:12:09]:

And if I do, how do I serve? Right. It has to be equally, equally merited. So we say here a lot that we have a meritocratic principle. Right? Our attorneys, excuse me, they know how much they're being paid. We have confidential percentages. Confidential amongst the organization, Right? Not to the outside world. Strike that.

Darren Wurz [00:12:30]:

Right.

Joel Ferdinand [00:12:31]:

The organization knows, the outside world doesn't. They're confidential to them. But we're all under that same rubric to make it fair. If you're a gunner and you work 100 hours a week, I don't think that's healthy. I shouldn't do it either. I know it's not. Well, then you're going to hit it out of the park. If you work 40 hours a week, you're still going to hit it out of the park.

Joel Ferdinand [00:12:49]:

But you know what that adjustment is? And we're judged now. That we should be judged. But we're meted out pay and I think prestige Based on how we work. And I think it's a command that we should work hard and gleefully. I love what I do. Right. I think that's what really, I mean, that's the core principle behind servant leadership. Do it, be passionate, do it well, and live your life for others.

Joel Ferdinand [00:13:13]:

It's not about me. It shouldn't be.

Darren Wurz [00:13:18]:

Yeah. A lot of business owners will, law firm owners will resonate with that, hopefully. You know, wanting to see your employees and your partners and see them succeed and be successful, I think that that's something that I kind of learned and found as I grew my own organization. Let's talk about more specifics, like how else culture is really big for you. How are you really innovating in a way that makes your firm different from maybe more traditional law firms or what. What are some of the new concepts that you're, you're implementing? Sure.

Joel Ferdinand [00:13:57]:

What we believe that, that the future is now. And, and we are the elite law firm of the future. Right. So those are on buzzwords. We focus first on technology backing. So we use some off the shelf products that I think are, are incredible with an open API so that we've been able to hire software engineers that we really trust that can help us engineer around what others could consider systems limitations to scale or even the billable or non billable. So Michael and I believe that a primary role of our job is to reduce the non billable for our partners. So Listen, we have 91 pre approved engagement forms, single client, multiple client with an RPC17, a joint rep waiver, no retainer, standard retainer, evergreen retainer, replenishing retainer, hourly contingent, mixed contingent, or hourly.91 of these.

Joel Ferdinand [00:14:46]:

It's not their job to sit down and draft these. Right. It's our job to know the rules of professional conduct. The SRA rules overseas make these simplistic for clients and make the process quick. So I'll tell every candidate during the interview process, because it is the truth. We've gotten this down to 60 seconds. It's not junk in, junk out. It has to be right.

Joel Ferdinand [00:15:08]:

But in 60 seconds, you should be able to draft the proper engagement form, get it to your client, have your client sign it automatically, save it to the system and move on to what we have to do as attorneys, which is solve problems. If it takes you four and a half, five hours to get something through a conflict system and draft an engagement agreement and figure out how to do it and talk to general counsel because this one's, this one's bespoke, it's unique. I'm failing you. This has to be thought through and made easier. Listen, we want to give our, our staff, our partners, want to give them their lives back. Right? Part of my frustration in law for the last hour, decade and a half, two decades I've been practicing, it's that the non billable takes up a lot of time and it can be exceedingly complicated. It shouldn't have to be. Our cases should be complex.

Joel Ferdinand [00:16:01]:

I love complex casework. Business, divorces, environmental law, dnl, that stuff's fun. But that's me solving a problem for a client. Whether I write off my time, bill it or otherwise, the non billable has to be easier. So we placed an incredible emphasis on making the non billable go away. Listen, can you ever reduce the non billable completely? No, I'm not foolish. I know you can, but you can reduce it greatly to make your attorneys and your professionals have the ability to get to the billable. Now if they get to the billable and we can reduce the non billable, we give them their personal lives back.

Joel Ferdinand [00:16:41]:

That's time spent with spouses and family and hobbies. That's just as important. And we put as much an emphasis on the technology we put on mental health, truthfully. So we believe that every lawyer suffers from a severe form of ptsd. Whatever position they've come from, whether that's big law, institutional government, they've had a bad experience with a judge or a client, they're suffering this form of post traumatic stress disorder where it's, listen, you've experienced it for lawyers at 2 o' clock in the morning, you have that wake up and you feel, you feel awful about something. Well, that shouldn't exist. So we make that go away. The way to make that go away is to be consistent and to help through technology.

Darren Wurz [00:17:30]:

Okay. Okay. What, what got you motivated to, to create this, this firm? Was there a defining moment where you said, I'm gonna go out and, and we're, you know, Michael and I are going to go out and create this organization. What, what was the inspiration?

Joel Ferdinand [00:17:53]:

You know, just because we do something different doesn't make it better. Right? There's other law firms out there that, that, or distribute it like we are. So we're, we're a remote law firm. There's other law firms out there trying to disrupt the legal marketplace. Big laws out there doing what big law does. I think there's a time and a place for each of it. And they're each, they're each excellent. What really set the stage for me And Michael, I was pretty miserable.

Joel Ferdinand [00:18:18]:

And I looked up one day and I realized I was pretty miserable. And I talked to Michael about it and it wasn't miserable because of any person or any organization. I just wanted to do it differently. Right. Michael wanted to do it differently. And we wanted to put the emphasis on our people, right? To hate, to dovetail back to culture. But it's a truth. I always said, wouldn't it be great if.

Joel Ferdinand [00:18:42]:

And we talked about it and lots of things were done in different organizations. Michael and I own another business that's non legal. And we watched a culture really build out of that organization with an incredible, incredible business partner, my dear friend Pete Edge, and some others where we put the emphasis on the humans and watch what happened. Right? There were so many organizations, Darren. I've worked in law firms, in house, whatever. People would talk about this, but I never felt it. And I always kind of felt like a number or like, you know, the bottom line of the calculator. I wanted to feel important and first.

Joel Ferdinand [00:19:20]:

So we say a lot here. We, we started our, our retreat like this last year. You're loved, you're empowered, and you're enough just the way you are, right? That's not a mantra. It's not meant to be hokey. We mean it. We love our teams. They are empowered and they are enough just the way they are because we hired them for good reason. Right? Every lawyer, every professional.

Joel Ferdinand [00:19:45]:

We're tools. I'm not the right tool for every, for every case. I'm a commercial litigator. I love to try cases. Sometimes I am way too aggressive and I know I can be. So sometimes it takes someone with a softer approach. That's not me. I know my limitations.

Joel Ferdinand [00:20:00]:

Right? So we, we want, want the full team to know our 230, 240plus partners here and the staff. So we, we have over 300. As an organization, we all serve very, very specific purpose. But it all hits a greater good. Michael says a lot. Rising tide raises all shifts. And it's the truth. If we all know the direction we're going and it's clear from inception, and it's clear from the C suite perspective, because we talk about this with frequency.

Joel Ferdinand [00:20:30]:

Well, now we have a team that gets it and now we're part of a larger organization that we know the purpose, right? I want everyone to feel like this. It's so important and I think it's, it's testament. Not to me and Michael, but it's testament to the organization. Look how it's growing. People are Genuinely happy. Can I tell you, like, my favorite part of the year? We walk into our firm annual retreat this September. So September 17th to 19th in still Vermont, 95% of the partnership RSVP'd yes. Darren, I'm freaking out.

Joel Ferdinand [00:21:00]:

I never thought that many people would come. So we're having a hoteling issue where we need more rooms. Now. That's incredible. No one's going to shake hands. They're gonna hug. And that's not hokey. It's the truth.

Joel Ferdinand [00:21:15]:

Because they love working together. They all know the same set of rules. It is transparent. They don't just see it, they feel it. I feel it. And to me, that's what it was. It was wanting something bigger, something where as a whole, we truly feel as one. Right.

Joel Ferdinand [00:21:35]:

Does that mean that people don't fight from time to time? No, we're human beings. Does that mean that we don't make mistakes? No, we're human beings. But we all know where we're moving together. And I think that's huge. That's really, to me, that's what I was going for. That's what Michael was going for. And it's working.

Darren Wurz [00:21:54]:

Yeah. Joel, I'm curious. I imagine this has been kind of life changing for some of the people in your organization. Can you share anonymously, maybe, one example of someone who was really impacted by. By joining your organization?

Joel Ferdinand [00:22:14]:

I'll give you a broader scale just so I don't even anonymously call someone out.

Darren Wurz [00:22:18]:

Sure.

Joel Ferdinand [00:22:19]:

We get. I have in my credenza behind me, I have a thank you folder. There's 35, 40 thank you cards in there from partners that have started waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like that PTS day. Like, are you real? Is this really who. Yes, this is really who I am. Is this really who Michael is? Yes. Listen, can I be a jerk sometimes? Sure.

Joel Ferdinand [00:22:45]:

I'm a human being. But I'm the first to apologize. Gosh, I hope I am where people are. Like, we have our life back. We rekindled a relationship with a spouse. We rekindled a relationship with a kid. My dad was in the hospital a couple weeks ago and that sucked. But I was able to work from ICU next to him and I had 200 plus people that had my back.

Joel Ferdinand [00:23:08]:

That's life changing for me. I couldn't do what I do without that. Right. People that have been with their families and don't feel judged for being with their families. People that have asked for help from an alcohol or drug perspective, that they need help and are able to come and say, I need help. That's great. Listen, you said earlier success, I don't know what success means. For 40 something years, my faux pas and my biggest failure is that I have been performance driven.

Joel Ferdinand [00:23:43]:

I don't know any other way. That's not success. This is not success. Success, I think, is what type of husband and dad can I be? Because I fail at that too. Right. It's what type of organization can we have as a team? I don't know that it's just money. It's not. The money's not important.

Joel Ferdinand [00:24:02]:

It's a necessary evil. But even as a business owner, we look at those metrics. To run a business, I have to be in a general ledger and a P and L and a balance sheet. We're running a business. But that is not the sole metric by which success is measured. So those thank you notes, they're the best for me. Everything from spending more time with my spouse to oh my gosh, I'm working less billable hours to my clients are happy to. I've been able to reduce my hourly shake to my clients and pass value, add to them on everything we touch.

Joel Ferdinand [00:24:35]:

And now my client wants to be more full service or my client wants to go on vacation with me. That to me, is huge. That shows me we're doing something right. Money follows and I, I can see it in the P and L and the balance sheet and the like. That's great. But it shows success, I think, at a different level. And that that's really what Michael and I want for our team. Money is important, necessary evil.

Joel Ferdinand [00:24:58]:

But how are they, how are they measuring their success? So I say a lot. We teach a scaling class here in a biz dev class. We do this with recruits. And I always say, listen, if you think your identity is in being a lawyer, you're failing. It is a noble profession. It should be full time. We should be highly responsive. But my identity is not in being a lawyer.

Darren Wurz [00:25:21]:

Yeah, that's a good. It's a good reminder.

Joel Ferdinand [00:25:25]:

We need it.

Darren Wurz [00:25:26]:

Let's talk about the money.

Joel Ferdinand [00:25:28]:

Yeah.

Darren Wurz [00:25:29]:

Yes, we all do. We all do it. So thank you so much for sharing those thoughts. Let's talk about the money. I got one fun segment I'd like to do called Money Myth Buster. I'm curious if there's a myth that you believed about money when you were young or early in life or something business or personal or whatever that now you know not to be true.

Joel Ferdinand [00:25:55]:

Yeah, listen, there was never a number, but I believe that money meant success. It doesn't do you know? So Michael and I interview all the candidates here, and I like to be the last interview, no matter what. I personally draft offer packages. It's. It's. Michael's very tolerant of me because I'm finicky in that regard. All right, the last thing I end with, I tell every single candidate, staff, partners, everyone, if you worship money in this model, you'll destroy your life. It comes from the exact question you just asked me.

Joel Ferdinand [00:26:36]:

I believed fervently that I needed to make a certain amount of money. And it was a sliding skill throughout my career to be quote, unquote, successful. Do you know, when I really chased money, it destroyed my relationship with my wife, Robin, with my son Finn, with my nephew Jameson. Why? Because I thought my worth was in money. You can make a lot of money in your career. Anyone that thinks that makes them happy, they're idiots. I was an idiot for a long time. Money does not make you happy.

Joel Ferdinand [00:27:09]:

Necessary evil. But I don't think there's. There's such a thing as enough or that right number. Listen, I work as much as I work now because I like it. I really do. But I love to anonymously. I love to anonymously donate. Hear me when I say anonymous.

Joel Ferdinand [00:27:25]:

I don't want my name on something. It's not what that's about. I like to watch what money can do in anonymous fashion to the right organizations to change people's lives. That's exciting to me.

Darren Wurz [00:27:39]:

Absolutely. I love that. It's not about the money itself. And in fact, I wrote about that in my book, the Lawyer Millionaire. The title is the Lawyer Millionaire, right? And we want to inspire people. I wanted it to be motivational, but I'm very clear in the beginning that it's not about a number. It never will be. Because the.

Darren Wurz [00:28:02]:

The dirty little secret is you can achieve that number. And then once you get there, it's like, okay, you know what now, right?

Joel Ferdinand [00:28:11]:

It's cute.

Darren Wurz [00:28:12]:

It's really.

Joel Ferdinand [00:28:14]:

I asked my dad years ago, very much, same personality, right? My dad's 80 years old, God bless him. He still works the way that I work. I was. I was raised on experience. I said, dad, when did you feel successful? I think my dad's a glowing success from. From a. From an economics perspective, from a business perspective, and he couldn't answer the question. And listen, you know, no secret, Darren.

Joel Ferdinand [00:28:39]:

I'm a big believer of mental health. So is Michael. So I go to therapy every two weeks at a minimum, right? My. One of my besties, Bob, is a therapist, and thank God For Bob. I. I've been trying to unpack this with Bob for years. There is no such thing as financial success. Is exactly what you said.

Joel Ferdinand [00:28:58]:

You can push for that number or that cash out. It's never enough. Because it's not about the money. It's not. It's like, oh, I made it. Well, if you live your life by metricable monetary success, you're always going to think you're a failure. At least that's what I think. Listen, it's great to have financial security.

Joel Ferdinand [00:29:20]:

It's great to be able to pay a bill in advance, to not worry about tuition. I get it. It's not lost on me. But that is not success. Just not. That's. That was the biggest growing up.

Darren Wurz [00:29:34]:

Yeah. That's so powerful. And I think a corollary to that is this idea that hard work equals money. And so we fall into this trap of we want money, so I just need to work hard. And then we end up just working hard and working as hard as we can and we just. If I just work harder. And I've seen this happen with me in my business sometimes when I'm working really hard and things aren't happening, and then I'll be like, okay, I give up. And then things start happening.

Darren Wurz [00:30:04]:

It's a weird phenomenon. It's like sometimes the less you work, the better things work.

Joel Ferdinand [00:30:10]:

So definitely not a financial myth by any means. But I think other than that financial myth, the biggest trick I think for years I've tried to convince myself of that is wrong, is that I have any form of control, because I don't. I don't. I know where it comes from. And that idea of control, or conceived control, which I think is a business owner's faux pas. Right. We want to know as much as we can. We want to know the issues.

Joel Ferdinand [00:30:38]:

We want to look as far in advance as we can. And listen, there's a strong amount of planning, I think that necessarily has to be done. But that idea of control, you're right. Sometimes when you just take the, ah, everything just works itself out. And that's not to sound silly. It's not that we're not forecasting and looking ahead and truly planning, but there is no control. I don't think it's dissimilar. In litigation, I can control as much as possible.

Joel Ferdinand [00:31:07]:

I believe that litigation is a Shakespearean play from. From inception to the end. I have court rules. I know what I can and cannot do. There are certain levers that I can take down or not. I can plan for that, but I can't control live testimony. Sometimes you just have to let it come in.

Darren Wurz [00:31:26]:

Yeah. You know, that reminds me of a book we read in our book club, the Psychology of Money. Have you ever read it?

Joel Ferdinand [00:31:35]:

Recently, actually. So I told you. But I'll give it to you. I'll give it to whomever cares to watch this. I downloaded about three weeks ago this app called I'm just looking it up so I don't say it. Blinkist, B L I N K I S T and I tell you I love it. I just don't have the time, 18 months into a new business to sit down and really read for nonfiction. I don't have time to read for fiction.

Joel Ferdinand [00:32:00]:

So as much as I love a good article, a book would be great. This app is pretty cheap, but honestly, I'm not a. Not a marketer for the app. I don't get anything off of this, but it gives you the effect of Cliff Notes on a nonfiction book. Over 16 to 18 minutes. And in the morning when I wake up with quiet time, I can rip through a book in 18 minutes and truly get the gist. It's been great. So, yes, I did listen to it.

Joel Ferdinand [00:32:25]:

It was excellent.

Darren Wurz [00:32:26]:

Nice. Nice. Yeah. He talks about the role of luck and how we have to appreciate the role of luck in, in success, especially in business, you can control the outcome. And a lot of people that we see as being very successful, luck played a role at some point. Maybe it's. Maybe it's divine, maybe it's something else. But we can't control necessarily where things are going.

Darren Wurz [00:32:56]:

Yeah.

Joel Ferdinand [00:32:57]:

Listen, I'm a fervent, such a powerful person. Fervent believer. I think I've said it two or three times. Like really, my faith is everything. I know for me, where it comes from doesn't mean that I don't try to out control things. I do. Doesn't mean that I don't try to overly plan. I do.

Joel Ferdinand [00:33:18]:

But at the end of the day, sure, it's a huge component of it. And listen, there's no way just to control our little universe, our little world. Right? There's no such thing as a fiefdom. I told you. This can't be about hubris. It can't be about ego. I screw up every day. I have to admit it.

Joel Ferdinand [00:33:38]:

And I can't just admit it to myself. I have to admit it to the team. That hurts, man. To be that vulnerable is not an easy thing to do. I think it's a learned trait at which I fail every day. But you Keep on coming back to it. I don't think it's any different with the spouse. I hurt Robin's feelings or Finn's feelings all the time.

Joel Ferdinand [00:33:58]:

It's not because I'm a meanie faced jerk. I'm just. I'm human and I have to go back and admit that. That's painful, man. Not just to them. It's painful to do it to yourself. To think that you're anything less than like perfect. Your idea perfect.

Joel Ferdinand [00:34:10]:

There's no such thing.

Darren Wurz [00:34:14]:

Definitely. Yeah. So Joel, in your Blinkist app, what are some of. What's one of the. The top reads that you've had recently that was really impactful for you?

Joel Ferdinand [00:34:25]:

So I read a. Or listened to Atomic Habits and also the 5am Club and I'll tell you, the 5am Club was pretty impactful for me because you used to do it for years and we are so. Yeah, unfortunately my wife would be like, no, he sleeps longer. It depends on the day, right? I don't sleep well. I tend to wake myself up just, just out of thinking it kind of. I've been doing this for the last few weeks now. 18 months in of a new business. It's difficult to still do but to find a quiet time and to focus on whatever you're focusing on.

Joel Ferdinand [00:35:00]:

Prayer, meditation, 20 minutes of a book, 20 minutes of just intense, intense workout just to get your cortisol levels down for the day. Stress levels. That's been pretty impactful to me and I've been really trying to focus on that the last several weeks to reinstitute that habit to wake up early and resist the urge to immediately get on this dumb device. Right. This thing to me, yes. As convenient, as great as it is, this is a trap that I am. I'm unfortunately very accustomed to. It's hard not to put it down.

Joel Ferdinand [00:35:32]:

Listen, man, there's some days I'm getting well more than a thousand emails a day. I'm responding to everyone personally. I have to. How do you get away from that? I think you have to buy that time emotionally and physically to get away from a computer or computing device, at least for an hour. That was a great book for me.

Darren Wurz [00:35:53]:

It's critical. That's wonderful. I love those. We haven't had those yet in the book club, but those are great recommendations. In fact, I haven't read either of those yet, but they've been on my list for a long time. I listen to audiobooks because like you, it's hard for me to sit down and read, but I can listen while I'M walking the dog or doing different things and that tends to be best for me. Yeah. Well, Joel, it's been a pleasure.

Darren Wurz [00:36:21]:

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Joel Ferdinand [00:36:23]:

Darren, this is really fun. Thank you so much. It's really good to see you again.

Darren Wurz [00:36:27]:

A big thank you to Joel Ferdinand for sharing his insights on leadership, transparency and building a values driven firm. You can learn more about him and his firm. Check out the show notes for the links. Here's my challenge to you. What would shift in your law firm if you chose to lead with radical transparency and a servant's heart? At the Lawyer Millionaire, we believe true wealth isn't just built in portfolios. It's built in purpose, culture and vision. Building a firm that reflects your values is the foundation for scaling your business, creating time, freedom and achieving lasting success. And that's exactly what we help law firm owners do every day.

Darren Wurz [00:37:08]:

To learn more, visit lawyermillionaire.com and download the first chapter of my book, the Lawyer Millionaire. And don't forget to join our free book club for law firm owners just like you who are ready to grow and connect with others. You can sign up@community lawyermillionaire. Who is the Lawyer Millionaire? It's you, my friend. Own it and live it. I'm your host, Darren Wirtz. Thanks for joining me. See you next time.

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